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	<title>Comments on: Fair Tax: Take 2, and&#8230;.ACTION!</title>
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	<description>Standing Athwart History, Yelling Incoherently!</description>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/comment-page-1/#comment-3270</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 20:53:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/#comment-3270</guid>
		<description>Not only healthcare, but home purchases would not be affordable!  Can you imagine a 23% tax on a $500,000 home?  That is $115,00 in tax!  

The national sales tax is bunk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not only healthcare, but home purchases would not be affordable!  Can you imagine a 23% tax on a $500,000 home?  That is $115,00 in tax!  </p>
<p>The national sales tax is bunk.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Curran</title>
		<link>http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/comment-page-1/#comment-3269</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Curran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 19:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/#comment-3269</guid>
		<description>Actually, Fairtax does have some great points -- if it worked.No IRS!  Nothing withheld from paycheck, and a prebate to pay our taxes on necessities!

But what if Fairtax didn&#039;t work? What if, for example, half of the money it says it can collect,  turns out to be uncollectable?  WOuld then the fairtax have to be 46%?

And if so  -- would the fairtax have to be  46% or more to make up for it?

Do you know that fairtax taxes the federal government, to pay for the federal government? 

Neal Boortz wrote &quot;The federal government itself will become a major taxpayer&quot; (Page 148 in his Fair Tax Book,)

Tax the federal government to pay for the federal government. ??

Isn&#039;t that a bit  like me, pretending I can pay myself 10,000 to cut my own grass?  I can write the check, I can even deposit the check. And I can do this every day. But at the end of the month, I don&#039;t have 300,000 dollars.


Fair tax advoates want to claim the government &quot;will become a major taxpayer&quot; -- but it can&#039;t possibly be so.   And the REASON fair tax has to pretend to tax the federal government ---they need to show, on paper, that they can collect 2.3 trillion in taxes. 


So Fair tax would have to be higher than 23% to remain revenue neutral, just for this one fallacy. 

Are there any other fallacies?

Fairtax can only work IF it gets people to pay 460 billion in taxes -- on their health care costs. People who get heart bypass surgery, cancer surgery -- people who are in nursing home.  Famlies fighting leukemia and other expensive illnesses will get incredily hard by the &quot;fairtax&quot;.

One family, who has a child with leukemia -- could get a 40,000 SALES tax.

One nursing home patient, who gets by on her social securty -- would get a sales tax of 25,000 a year -- plus more tax for any other medical costs.

One cancer patient, with surgery, chemo, and radiation, could have 50,000 in &quot;sales taxes&quot;.

So you will have the absurdity of a person who is actually taxed MORE sales tax than they have income. 

Therefore, one way or another -- these patients will get exemptions, either defacto exemptions -- by not paying it. Or dejure exemptions - by getting an official exemption.

EIther way, the Fairtax can&#039;t possibly collect 460 billion-dollars from these folks.

Most likely, the outcry from even attempting to tax an 80 year old stroke victim in a nursing home, would result in Congress exempting all health care cost from the &quot;fair&quot; tax.

Fair tax has to get 150 billion in taxes -- from people as a tax on their rent.

Fair tax has to get  150 billion by taxing people who buy new cars --- and pretend that new car sales won&#039;t drop because of the high taxes.

Fair tax has to pretend it can collet 200 billion by taxing people who buy new houses -- and pretend the huge tax on new homes wont diminish sales. 

Group after group will scream bloody murder -- and get exemptions. 

So with all these inevitable exemptions -- Fairtax rate would have to be 60-80%.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, Fairtax does have some great points &#8212; if it worked.No IRS!  Nothing withheld from paycheck, and a prebate to pay our taxes on necessities!</p>
<p>But what if Fairtax didn&#8217;t work? What if, for example, half of the money it says it can collect,  turns out to be uncollectable?  WOuld then the fairtax have to be 46%?</p>
<p>And if so  &#8212; would the fairtax have to be  46% or more to make up for it?</p>
<p>Do you know that fairtax taxes the federal government, to pay for the federal government? </p>
<p>Neal Boortz wrote &#8220;The federal government itself will become a major taxpayer&#8221; (Page 148 in his Fair Tax Book,)</p>
<p>Tax the federal government to pay for the federal government. ??</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t that a bit  like me, pretending I can pay myself 10,000 to cut my own grass?  I can write the check, I can even deposit the check. And I can do this every day. But at the end of the month, I don&#8217;t have 300,000 dollars.</p>
<p>Fair tax advoates want to claim the government &#8220;will become a major taxpayer&#8221; &#8212; but it can&#8217;t possibly be so.   And the REASON fair tax has to pretend to tax the federal government &#8212;they need to show, on paper, that they can collect 2.3 trillion in taxes. </p>
<p>So Fair tax would have to be higher than 23% to remain revenue neutral, just for this one fallacy. </p>
<p>Are there any other fallacies?</p>
<p>Fairtax can only work IF it gets people to pay 460 billion in taxes &#8212; on their health care costs. People who get heart bypass surgery, cancer surgery &#8212; people who are in nursing home.  Famlies fighting leukemia and other expensive illnesses will get incredily hard by the &#8220;fairtax&#8221;.</p>
<p>One family, who has a child with leukemia &#8212; could get a 40,000 SALES tax.</p>
<p>One nursing home patient, who gets by on her social securty &#8212; would get a sales tax of 25,000 a year &#8212; plus more tax for any other medical costs.</p>
<p>One cancer patient, with surgery, chemo, and radiation, could have 50,000 in &#8220;sales taxes&#8221;.</p>
<p>So you will have the absurdity of a person who is actually taxed MORE sales tax than they have income. </p>
<p>Therefore, one way or another &#8212; these patients will get exemptions, either defacto exemptions &#8212; by not paying it. Or dejure exemptions &#8211; by getting an official exemption.</p>
<p>EIther way, the Fairtax can&#8217;t possibly collect 460 billion-dollars from these folks.</p>
<p>Most likely, the outcry from even attempting to tax an 80 year old stroke victim in a nursing home, would result in Congress exempting all health care cost from the &#8220;fair&#8221; tax.</p>
<p>Fair tax has to get 150 billion in taxes &#8212; from people as a tax on their rent.</p>
<p>Fair tax has to get  150 billion by taxing people who buy new cars &#8212; and pretend that new car sales won&#8217;t drop because of the high taxes.</p>
<p>Fair tax has to pretend it can collet 200 billion by taxing people who buy new houses &#8212; and pretend the huge tax on new homes wont diminish sales. </p>
<p>Group after group will scream bloody murder &#8212; and get exemptions. </p>
<p>So with all these inevitable exemptions &#8212; Fairtax rate would have to be 60-80%.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Curran</title>
		<link>http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/comment-page-1/#comment-3151</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Curran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 19:39:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/#comment-3151</guid>
		<description>Fairtax is math nonsense. It pretends to tax the federal government to pay the federalg goverment. Thats like me paying myself 10,000 a day to cut my own grass. I can write the check - and deposit it in that same account. But at the end of the month, I dont have 300,000. 

Plus other absurdities, like taxing cancer surgery, chemo, nursing home patients. All medical cost would be taxed -- can you say irate folks calling congress?

Plus - taxes RENT. Won&#039;t renters be surprise.

Fair tax is  not a little nonsense — its a lot of nonsense. It would be hated by 50-80 million people if enacted,and they see what it really does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fairtax is math nonsense. It pretends to tax the federal government to pay the federalg goverment. Thats like me paying myself 10,000 a day to cut my own grass. I can write the check &#8211; and deposit it in that same account. But at the end of the month, I dont have 300,000. </p>
<p>Plus other absurdities, like taxing cancer surgery, chemo, nursing home patients. All medical cost would be taxed &#8212; can you say irate folks calling congress?</p>
<p>Plus &#8211; taxes RENT. Won&#8217;t renters be surprise.</p>
<p>Fair tax is  not a little nonsense — its a lot of nonsense. It would be hated by 50-80 million people if enacted,and they see what it really does.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/comment-page-1/#comment-3008</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:38:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/#comment-3008</guid>
		<description>I must still argue with you on the abolition of the IRS.  The consumption tax would not be able to eliminate the Service.  You have prebates (as you call them) that would have to be paid out.  You have exemptions, credits and you have reporting by the businesses.  the IRS would not go away, the burden would be reduced by the ordinary tax payer (as far as reporting goes) but not by those selling products or services.  I seriously doubt the government would simply trust them to send in the correct amount of tax dollars. 

Therefore, you may like the consumption tax, but it will not eliminate the Service.  And you know better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must still argue with you on the abolition of the IRS.  The consumption tax would not be able to eliminate the Service.  You have prebates (as you call them) that would have to be paid out.  You have exemptions, credits and you have reporting by the businesses.  the IRS would not go away, the burden would be reduced by the ordinary tax payer (as far as reporting goes) but not by those selling products or services.  I seriously doubt the government would simply trust them to send in the correct amount of tax dollars. </p>
<p>Therefore, you may like the consumption tax, but it will not eliminate the Service.  And you know better.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl</title>
		<link>http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/comment-page-1/#comment-2998</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 00:39:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/#comment-2998</guid>
		<description>Okay. Once again, I screwed this up. Willmoore is correct, please see Mr. Boortz&#039;s explanations as really knows what he&#039;s talking about. 

I still wholeheartedly endorse the Fair Tax. Simply eliminating the hopelessly confusing tax code and the IRS should be enough to recommend it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay. Once again, I screwed this up. Willmoore is correct, please see Mr. Boortz&#8217;s explanations as really knows what he&#8217;s talking about. </p>
<p>I still wholeheartedly endorse the Fair Tax. Simply eliminating the hopelessly confusing tax code and the IRS should be enough to recommend it.</p>
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		<title>By: Willmoore</title>
		<link>http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/comment-page-1/#comment-2986</link>
		<dc:creator>Willmoore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/#comment-2986</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s a related question: The FairTax is supposed to be designed to be revenue-neutral. If Bob and Margaret reap such a windfall from FairTax, then who will be paying more taxes to make up for it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a related question: The FairTax is supposed to be designed to be revenue-neutral. If Bob and Margaret reap such a windfall from FairTax, then who will be paying more taxes to make up for it?</p>
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		<title>By: Willmoore</title>
		<link>http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/comment-page-1/#comment-2985</link>
		<dc:creator>Willmoore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:27:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/#comment-2985</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s not what the quote you put up implies:

&lt;blockquote&gt;One cannot buy a loaf of bread without paying the income taxes of the baker. ...

...  Those income and payroll taxes cascade through the production process and eventually make up more of the cost of that loaf of bread than the profits of any of those who worked to produce that bread.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But you&#039;re saying that personal &lt;i&gt;income&lt;/i&gt; taxes have nothing to do with the calculation that yields the 22% &quot;embedded tax&quot;-- just the employers&#039; half of the payroll tax, plus the corporate income tax and whatever else. Right?

Even &lt;a href=&quot;http://boortz.com/nuze/200509/09152005.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Boortz admits&lt;/a&gt; that the 22% calculation includes all income and payroll taxes paid to employees: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;We write in The FairTax Book that the competitive pressures of the marketplace will force prices down when embedded taxes disappear from the cost of retail goods and services, and we cite 22% as the average amount of those embedded taxes.  Does this 22% include the income and payroll taxes that are paid by employees?  Yes, it does. &lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s not what the quote you put up implies:</p>
<blockquote><p>One cannot buy a loaf of bread without paying the income taxes of the baker. &#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230;  Those income and payroll taxes cascade through the production process and eventually make up more of the cost of that loaf of bread than the profits of any of those who worked to produce that bread.</p></blockquote>
<p>But you&#8217;re saying that personal <i>income</i> taxes have nothing to do with the calculation that yields the 22% &#8220;embedded tax&#8221;&#8211; just the employers&#8217; half of the payroll tax, plus the corporate income tax and whatever else. Right?</p>
<p>Even <a href="http://boortz.com/nuze/200509/09152005.html" rel="nofollow">Boortz admits</a> that the 22% calculation includes all income and payroll taxes paid to employees: </p>
<blockquote><p>We write in The FairTax Book that the competitive pressures of the marketplace will force prices down when embedded taxes disappear from the cost of retail goods and services, and we cite 22% as the average amount of those embedded taxes.  Does this 22% include the income and payroll taxes that are paid by employees?  Yes, it does. </p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Karl</title>
		<link>http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/comment-page-1/#comment-2983</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/#comment-2983</guid>
		<description>These are two separate things. Employers withhold from an employees paycheck the employee&#039;s portion of the tax. PLUS, the employer must also pay a portion of the tax. Eliminating that tax benefits both the employer - he gets to keep what he earns - AND the employer - he no longer has to pay the employer portion of the tax or collect the employee portion for the government. 

Also there are direct taxes on businesses. This is not hocus pocus; there are levels upon levels of taxation, all of which is applied to the cost of goods that we buy. Take a look at the taxes that would be eliminated by the Fair Tax and you begin to get an idea.

One added benefit is that because the employer no longer pays the employer portion of the payroll tax, it is possible that wages will increase for Bob and Maragaret OR that their employers will be able to hire more employees. Either way, wage growth or employment growth is a boon to the economy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These are two separate things. Employers withhold from an employees paycheck the employee&#8217;s portion of the tax. PLUS, the employer must also pay a portion of the tax. Eliminating that tax benefits both the employer &#8211; he gets to keep what he earns &#8211; AND the employer &#8211; he no longer has to pay the employer portion of the tax or collect the employee portion for the government. </p>
<p>Also there are direct taxes on businesses. This is not hocus pocus; there are levels upon levels of taxation, all of which is applied to the cost of goods that we buy. Take a look at the taxes that would be eliminated by the Fair Tax and you begin to get an idea.</p>
<p>One added benefit is that because the employer no longer pays the employer portion of the payroll tax, it is possible that wages will increase for Bob and Maragaret OR that their employers will be able to hire more employees. Either way, wage growth or employment growth is a boon to the economy.</p>
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		<title>By: Willmoore</title>
		<link>http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/comment-page-1/#comment-2978</link>
		<dc:creator>Willmoore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:06:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/#comment-2978</guid>
		<description>There seem to be two conflicting assumptions in your example:

Assumption 1: &lt;b&gt;employers&lt;/b&gt; will keep all of what was previously income tax withholding and payroll taxes after FairTax. Therefore, the &quot;embedded tax&quot; in products is eliminated.

Assumption 2: &lt;b&gt;employees&lt;/b&gt; keep what was previously taxed under the income and payroll taxes. Therefore, Bob and Margaret take home $74,000 each year. 

How does the FairTax fairy dust allow both of these assumptions to be true?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There seem to be two conflicting assumptions in your example:</p>
<p>Assumption 1: <b>employers</b> will keep all of what was previously income tax withholding and payroll taxes after FairTax. Therefore, the &#8220;embedded tax&#8221; in products is eliminated.</p>
<p>Assumption 2: <b>employees</b> keep what was previously taxed under the income and payroll taxes. Therefore, Bob and Margaret take home $74,000 each year. </p>
<p>How does the FairTax fairy dust allow both of these assumptions to be true?</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/comment-page-1/#comment-2964</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:39:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.conservativedonnybrook.com/2008/01/26/fair-tax-take-2-andaction/#comment-2964</guid>
		<description>Thank you.  But Karl, I have flightier dreams than the Fairtax.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you.  But Karl, I have flightier dreams than the Fairtax.</p>
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