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A Republic, Not an Empire: A Response to Doughboy
It is disappointing when one’s opponent in a debate resorts to exaggeration and generalization. My latest post seems to have enflamed passions and caused people to abandon any attempt at reasoned debate, instead they have resorted to name calling and gross generalizations. The question on the table seems to be “Does America maintain an empire? And, if so, is it beneficial to America to be an imperial power?”
I have posited that America is maintaining an empire – a claim that is refuted by Doughboy who prefers the term “peacekeeping.” By using the word empire, instead of a more misleading term, I have been labeled a “guy who care[s] about your pocketbooks and cozying up to the anti war left”; that I am a cult member of Ron Paul’s; that I am a xenophobe who lacks understanding of the “global nature of the present times”; that I maintain a “leftwing site” that “never [has] any praise for our military, our Republican leaders, America etc. And there’s never any criticism twrd Obama, Pelosi, etc, only the military, Bush and peacekeeping.”
As to the last several specious arguments: that this website “never [has] any praise for our military,” see here, here, here for instances where I, personally, have praised the military during the last year. These do not reflect Bill’s constant praise for our soldiers. As for praising our Republican leaders, I would direct Doughboy’s attention here, here, here, here, here, here, and here where I have praised Republicans. Just recently I wrote this praising the very idea of America and I would note that virtually everything I write is suffused with an abiding love and respect for our constitutional way of life. So, as for Doughboy’s criticisms of the website, I think we can safely view them as hyperbole and emotional reaction unrelated to actual facts. I admit that I do criticize Republicans and even conservatives. As I have written before, the more vigorous the debate on the issues, the better. A strong debate tends to cull weaker ideas that cannot be justified. In that sense, debate among conservatives is healthy. When conservatives cease debate about their plank, that is a sign of unhealthy group-think that will inevitably lead to trouble.
As for the primary question, whether America is an empire, I point to our continual military presence in far-flung provinces as evidence of empire. Doughboy responds that these are for the purpose of peacekeeping, although one wonders if Germany still remains at risk of descending into chaos but for the presence of our soldiers there. Wouldn’t America be safer if its allies maintained strong militaries instead of abdicating their responsibility to defend themselves to the United States? Think of it this way. If you were a criminal looking for victims and you saw a huge, tough guy walking around with a bunch of four-year-olds in his gang, you would instantly recognize that in order to take control of the gang, you would simply have to take out the huge, tough guy – the rest would fall into your orbit from a lack of any real options. However, if you approached a gang where the huge, tough guy were accompanied by a fair number of sizable companions, you may find yourself less likely to consider them as a potential target. I invite Doughboy to consider which model the situation in Europe is more like. The fact is, our presence there excuses them from providing for themselves. Their refusal to accept responsibility for themselves, in turn, places the United States at greater risk, not lesser. A strong allied Europe would be a boon to the United States, but that will never happen as long we maintain our protective umbrella over our European provinces.
Oh, I’m sure referencing “our European provinces” is likely to draw fire, but if one nation cannot defend itself and relies on another, the stark reality is that the nation that holds the strings of life or death over the other actually holds the nation. It has been rendered a dependent state and cannot in any meaningful way be regarded as sovereign as long as such a condition persists. America was once in that position; it was then a colony of Great Britain, a holding of the crown. I will readily admit that America is bad at maintaining an empire. For instance, it is customary to force the colony to pull its own weight by remitting taxes or tribute to the emperor. Instead, we foot the bill for the entire world’s security.
Doughboy maintains that we are safer because we have troops scattered all over the world. He maintains that we benefit economically from this arrangement and that the world is more secure as a result. I have asked him to make his case. I am persuadable, I will listen to cogent argument. I will not listen to a harangue about how I have turned the website into a CNN.com chatroom by making myself into a leftist, who harbors a secret love for Pelosi, Reid, and Obama. Set me straight, Doughboy. I welcome the opportunity to engage in reasoned debate.
August 11th, 2009 at 10:57 am
No thanks, Karl. I read your “pro American” posts from way back and look forward to more love for the troops and less Bush/military bashing, mostly from Dean and Mike. I look forward to more exposing our enemies, rather than our nation and its heroes. Thanks.
August 11th, 2009 at 11:11 am
For the record, while I too admire McCain/Palin, I am looking for more praise of Bush and the militaty. Did not see much of that other than generic lines….it’s ok as you don’t support “the empire” (which we are not building nor have ever, will ever), but still, the preponderance of posts in my 6 weeks here are overly complicated and unnecessary digs at the military, the GWOT and never an ounce of bashing the terrorists or the Democrats, other than from Bill. I get grief for my patriotism and honesty.
It’s been a “fun” experience. It shows democracy is messy and it proves that our party does have many nuances, which is good in that the Dems do not, but it’s also why we’re losing elections. Too many conservative busy bashing conservative leaders from diff’t conservative factions rather than bonding together.
Ron Paul’s ilk does NOT want to kill terrorists and keep us safe. At least Obama has wisely kept the bush policies in place. Therefore we are alive. Ron Paul would have ended the war, cut and run and wed be dead.
The sooner Ron Paul disappears, the better for America. He is a heinos anti-semite, a deceitful, misguided little man who is more dangerous than Pelosi, Biden and Obama combined.
Sorry to say that, but most I know, knew that from day one. Many said the other GOP nominees should not share a stage with such a racist, anti-Israle bigot whose words endanger our troops and embolden the enemy in ways Michael Moore could only dream of.
And yet, we have you guys voting for him?
August 11th, 2009 at 11:48 am
I would be lying if I didn’t say I was disappointed that Doughboy is unwilling to make any cogent case for his position.
The invitation remains for someone to step up and make the case. As for repeating Doughboy’s libel of Ron Paul, I would simply ask whoever takes up the task of making the neocon case to try to do so without doing likewise. I think the case can be made without recourse to rancorousness.
Now if you all will excuse me, I am late for my Ron Paul Adoration meeting. We will burning effigies of Bush and other Republicans this week, ghostwriting posts on DailyKos, and quoting our favorite lines from Michael Moore movies. Osama bin Laden is scheduled to speak next week. I have goosebumps just thinking about it. See you in a few hours if they let me leave.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Read my post today and tell meif you agree. If you don’t, it’s hopeless. If you do, I’m good with it. That’s the best way.
We should all want to kill terrorists as Steve said. That is number one. All else is secondary.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
The mocking satire you used would make John Stewart proud, Karl. (-:
Your post was nice. I like Bush, not Paul. He kept us safe. Had we adopted Paul or the Dems cut and run BS, we’d be dead as would millions of others, or living under tyrant.
Thank G-d for President Bush! It amazes me how uungrateful people are to those who keep us safe or those who mane UNPOPULAR decision to keep us safe.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
lastly, it does amaze me that intelligent people cannot understand how vital the Iraq portion of the long GWOT is, rather than clichesd about Afghanistan, cut and run, or “they never attacked us” etc
it’s a good thing you guys were not making WW2 policy or you’d never have understood why Hitler was a threat to the region or why Jews were being rounded up and killed
i never though so called “conservatives” could show such ignorance of history past and present and resort to the silliest of excuses and cliches about Saddam, Al Qaeda etc
next you’ll tell me the war is illegal, and “for oil” and that Saddam has no WNDs or that we needed permission to look for them or save millions from tyranny and give them back the life they deserve
do you still not realize the Iraqis want us there b/c we’ve given them back their freedom, or do you just quote michael moore platitudes about “fallujah,” Dean?
libertarian/paelo conservatism is such a selfish ideology, just like liberalism
neither care about “liberal” democracies anywhere but America
it’s a shame we fought so hard to become the world’s superpower when folks have no interest in maintaining such an honor
i find this donnybrook fun, but i’d rather debate people from the opposite side of the political spectrum, not other “conservatives”
though i guess if you voted for the ron paul, you are as far from the right side as those voting for Obama, maybe more
ron paul???
my goodness, did you watch his venom, anti-americanism and hatred during the debate
did you read his racism and sexism on lewrockwell.com?
do you know that most college towns are littered with radical left wing nuts driving volvos and subarus with ron paul stickers?
the biggest fascists at rallies are ron paul’s folks
again, i spend time at work asking this b/c i care about our party supporting someone more comfortable with george soros than george bush
and now i am done
d-o-n-e
karl, see u for lunch tomorrow
August 11th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Perhaps if someone were to make the case (provide argument) for why the Iraq war is so crucial to the GWOT, we intelligent folks could be persuaded.
As for our ignorance of history I will point out one item and invite those who would judge to make their own determination. Doughboy calls the Ron Paul supporters – those who believe in limited government, individual freedom and local governance – fascists. Fascism is “a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.” Who is confused about history?
August 11th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
neither care about “liberal” democracies anywhere but America
I don’t even care about democracy in America. Our founders certainly didn’t. They understood a democracy leads to the worst form of tyranny possible (think French Revolution). Why the clamor for universal health care? Because the masses want free bread and circuses, rule of law (respect for individual rights and private property- you know, Ron Paul stuff) be damned.
Obama and his ilk are our crowning achievement of a democratic society. Are you sure you want to keep promoting it?
August 11th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
“limited government, individual freedom and local governance”
I have said many times I find Paul’s economic and social beliefs very strong. But I am a nat’l security guy first & foremost, so Paul is dead bottom with me.
August 11th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Iraq is central because we need to fight this war from one place, not many. We have bases in and around Iraqw, have been successful there, and most importantly, the terrain and support system is better there.
Again, cut and run and we’re dead. A long war. Be patient.
August 11th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
here’s fascism
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090811/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_health_care_overhaul
again, there’s never any Obama bashing here, or posts like that
incredible
August 11th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
“it’s a good thing you guys were not making WW2 policy or you’d never have understood why Hitler was a threat to the region”
um, we declared war on Japan when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Then Hitler declared war on us. I don’t recall WWII policymakers deciding to go to war against Hitler. In fact, it was just the opposite. They stayed out of the war in Europe (formally), until Hitler made the decision for us. What exactly are you arguing?
“Saddam has no WNDs”
And those are where, exactly?
“did you watch [Ron Paul's] venom”
Yes, his fangs were on vivid display. When his tale rattled, I knew there was trouble. Such a vicious limited-government snake, that Ron Paul.
“again, i spend time at work asking this b/c i care about our party supporting someone more comfortable with george soros than george bush”
This is one of your bigger lies. I’m pretty sure everybody here thinks George Soros is one of the world’s most malicious, evil men. I sure do.
It is logically possible for me to not be “comfortable” with George Soros AND George Bush.
“the biggest fascists at rallies are ron paul’s folks”
So you define “fascist” as someone who is opposed to big government? You cannot sling words like that around without making them utterly useless, but that is what has happened.
August 11th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
You’re right Doughboy. We never take Obama and company on. It would be nice if our contributors actually read our website. But, apparently, that is too much to ask.
August 11th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
Most of these were before I read the site. Thanks for taking time to find those. I am interested in your taking on Obama’s FoPo, not his abortion, economic views, etc. Actually, Obama is wisely following Bush’s FoPo, so you should take umbrage.
August 11th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
But I am a nat’l security guy first & foremost, so Paul is dead bottom with me.
To be clear, you define national security as a willingness to kill tens (hundreds?) of thousands of people in a country half way around the world that have never fired a single shot at us so that we can install a Muslim government, our third consecutive attempt at installing governments in this particular country.
August 12th, 2009 at 8:14 am
“thousands of people in a country half way around the world that have never fired a single shot ”
wow, the most erroneous statement ever uttered
yep, no one in Iraq or anywhere in that region had anything to do with the killings the past 1400 years, esp the past 30, or 9-11 or the 14000 terror attacks since 9-11 worldwide, not to mention the dozens we’ve thwarted since 9-11 thanks to the policies you oppose
your vote for ron paul or bob barr arguably cost mccain the election
sorry, guys, the more i read the more i am angered and find you 100% equally as misguided as the bozos of the left, even if well-meaning
so, adios
the GOP is now in factions and like many times in the past will lose election after election due to that
at least the dems are united in their radicalism and antiwar, anti military, anti Israel views
August 12th, 2009 at 8:56 am
Nice how you misquote me and ignore the substance of my remarks.
or the 14000 terror attacks since 9-11 worldwide
Wait a minute, I thought you said there have been no terrorist attacks since 9-11. I guess if they are outside of USA you don’t care, except to quote it as a statistic when convenient.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
re #16: The GOP should lose every election if it’s merely peddling liberalism light. And guess what? Globalism, Big-Stick, Tax-and-Spend (a la Cap and Trade, Bailouts, No Child Left Behind, Healthcare “Reform,” etc.), Immigration “Reform,” and starting phony wars are the hallmarks of liberalism. You will not, nor do I believe you can, make a cogent case that what you are calling “national security” is the best course of action, use of resources, or makes our nation secure. The contrary has been proven to you, yet you insist on pointing to “no terror attacks here since 9/11″ despite the fact that there were no terrorist attacks here prior to 9/11/01 despite our not being blessed with the Patriot Act or Bush Doctrine. Dear me; however did we manage 200+ years without those remarkable boons?
Time and again our side has given specific, money-saving, practical solutions which would actually contribute to national security, because we love our country and its constitutionally enshrined principles, and time and again, your side calls us racist, isolationist, liberal, and so forth. You never make an actual argument; you point us to Prager, Kagan, Kristol, or whomever, and they (like the officials in the administration who acted even before 9/11/01 to instigate a war with Iraq so that Israel would not have to, and like administration officials and lobbyists for AIPAC acted as agents for a foreign government giving and soliciting information which was detrimental to operational security of American troops) constantly fabricate “evidence” like tubes for rail guns, yellow-cake sales from Niger, and ad hoc and ever-shifting “justifications” for abandoning the legitimate fight we were winning in Afghanistan against the guys who actually did attack us. ‘N stuff. You know, complicated stuff involving actual facts. Sorry we’ve forced you to think and try to defend your arguments at the Donnybrook. I would have enjoyed actually coming across one some day. Always a bridesmaid, never a bride, alas. You keep on saying “bye,” which is really too bad. I wish you’d quit doing that, knuckle down, and engage these contributions and other commenters’ contributions. It makes for healthy discourse. We all learn, and we all improve as a result. I’m going to continue tearing into Dean, Karl, Bill, and the rest. They’re going to continue tearing into me. I don’t want a rancorous repeat of an earlier ugliness. Please stick around and duke it out.